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Great Hierophant
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 267
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 Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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To have added support for the Famicom cartridge sound chips, all they would have had to impliment a simple switch. If the NES slot was being used, the audio would go straight from the amplifying circuitry to the RCA jacks. If the Famicom slot was being used, the audio would go straight from the amplifying circuity to the audio IN pin on the cartridge connector. The switch would break the original connection to the RCA jacks during this instance so you would not hear double the 2A03 sound.
They could have used this switch to also "turn off" one of the slots. Who knows what may happen if you have a Famicom and a NES cartridge inserted into the machine at the same time and push the power button? It could possibly damage the system, so it would be best to enable only one at a time. Alas, they were either too cheap or ignorant to do this. |
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drk421
Joined: 14 Nov 2004
Posts: 243
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:39 am Post subject: |
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Switch?
Sounds complicated.
My method of modding a NES for Famisound mixes the audio out of the Famicart with the 2A03. And it works for every Famicart w/ sound I've tried. The levels are also about 99% correct.
Look around on the board. |
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Great Hierophant
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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The Famicom is simplier. Once the audio signals are mixed, filtered and amplified, they go straight to the audio input on the Famicom connector. If there no extra sound hardware in the cartridge, the cartridge bridges the audio input pin with the audio output pin, making a loop that goes straight to the RCA jack. If there is extra sound hardware, the pins are not bridged on the cartridge and the NES sound travels through the cartridge before it appears on the RCA jack.
So for Famicom games, the parallel audio in and out lines are not bridged. (The cartridge will do any bridging.) For NES games, they are bridged on the PCB, not on the cartridge connector. This is where the switch, really a jumper, comes in. |
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kevtris
Joined: 29 Oct 2005
Posts: 280
Location: Indianapolis
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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Hmmm... I looked at the pics. The chip marked "PPU" is really an NES on a chip. The chip marked "CPU" is not the CPU. I'm not quite sure what it is... possibly something related to the controllers... None of its pins connect to the cart connectors. If you look, both the CPU and PPU pins on the cart connectors go to the NES on a chip.
Also, on the board marked "wireless", I don't really see any RF circuitry, just 3 gloptops... prolly 4021's and some other kind of chip. The RF stuff might be a solder-on module... I can't tell since there was no picture of the top side of that board. |
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Jagasian
Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Posts: 386
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| kevtris wrote: | Hmmm... I looked at the pics. The chip marked "PPU" is really an NES on a chip. The chip marked "CPU" is not the CPU. I'm not quite sure what it is... possibly something related to the controllers... None of its pins connect to the cart connectors. If you look, both the CPU and PPU pins on the cart connectors go to the NES on a chip.
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Is it possible to tell which NOAC it is using? How many different NOACs are there? Here is what Messiah's official statement is on this issue:
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Q: Is the Generation NEX a clone (NOAC) or does it have all of the components of an actual NES inside?
A: NEX is a clone and cannot use the actual NES IC because it is not licensed by Nintendo. (see next)
Q: Does it contain custom ICs, or is it based around the NOAC [NES-on-a-chip] that most "clone" consoles are based around?
A: Our IC is a custom designed IC that is built on the NES algorithm. Every attention to detail has been spent on compatibility.
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Of course that sounded shadey to me from the start. It is very political speech, as even if they use a crappy NOAC, they can just claim that it is a custom NOAC, but then what is considered a custom NOAC? We do know that the accuracy/compatibility of their system sucks, so I guess the details don't matter, but I would be impressed if anybody could identify the source of the NOAC... which would imply that it isn't very custom at all. |
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Guest
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:17 pm Post subject: My NEX Mini-Review |
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I know most of what I have to say is redundant to what you guys already know, but I thought I'd share my hands-on mini-review of the Generation NEX on my blog. It's available at http://www.vintagecomputing.com/?p=6 .
Feel free to share your thoughts on the NEX -- we can compare notes.
Boy, I wish Messiah had hired some guys from the NesDev forum to design the NEX instead of relying on some presumably off-the-shelf famicrap. The holy grail of a 100% compatible NES clone still hasn't been attained. 
RedWolf |
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kevtris
Joined: 29 Oct 2005
Posts: 280
Location: Indianapolis
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Jagasian wrote: | | kevtris wrote: | Hmmm... I looked at the pics. The chip marked "PPU" is really an NES on a chip. The chip marked "CPU" is not the CPU. I'm not quite sure what it is... possibly something related to the controllers... None of its pins connect to the cart connectors. If you look, both the CPU and PPU pins on the cart connectors go to the NES on a chip.
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Is it possible to tell which NOAC it is using? How many different NOACs are there? Here is what Messiah's official statement is on this issue:
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I don't know... probably not much way to tell. There isn't much variety though; Probably the kind you find in a "super joy" at your local mall being sold for $39.95 with a multicart 
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Q: Is the Generation NEX a clone (NOAC) or does it have all of the components of an actual NES inside?
A: NEX is a clone and cannot use the actual NES IC because it is not licensed by Nintendo. (see next)
Q: Does it contain custom ICs, or is it based around the NOAC [NES-on-a-chip] that most "clone" consoles are based around?
A: Our IC is a custom designed IC that is built on the NES algorithm. Every attention to detail has been spent on compatibility.
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That's hilarious! They didn't technically lie... by saying it's a "custom designed IC that is built on the NES algorithm" they didn't lie... it's of course an ASIC which is indeed custom
Also, what the hell is an "NES algorithm"? that's one of the more amusing ways to describe the NES I've heard. Also, "every attention to detail" is amusing. What details did they pay attention to, exactly? From what I read, the compatibility sucks and the audio sucks.
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Of course that sounded shadey to me from the start. It is very political speech, as even if they use a crappy NOAC, they can just claim that it is a custom NOAC, but then what is considered a custom NOAC? We do know that the accuracy/compatibility of their system sucks, so I guess the details don't matter, but I would be impressed if anybody could identify the source of the NOAC... which would imply that it isn't very custom at all. |
One thing I can't figure out though. Why are all the fanboys just pissing their pants about this famiclone console? I can't figure out what's different on it compared to a powerjoy that you can buy at your local mall, except for a few add-on frills.
Heck, the one you can buy with a cart connector most likely would've played MMC5 games |
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Jagasian
Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Posts: 386
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| kevtris wrote: |
That's hilarious! They didn't technically lie... by saying it's a "custom designed IC that is built on the NES algorithm" they didn't lie... it's of course an ASIC which is indeed custom
Also, what the hell is an "NES algorithm"? that's one of the more amusing ways to describe the NES I've heard. Also, "every attention to detail" is amusing. What details did they pay attention to, exactly? From what I read, the compatibility sucks and the audio sucks.
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The entire project screams "outsourcing". The confused techno-Engrish, the poor construction, and the pathetic design. Official interviews with the president of the company hint that he and a few others are the only permenant employees. Paying people decent money for high-quality work is a thing of the past. You can also be sure that the people that this was outsourced too only see a very minute fraction of the $60 paid for each NEX. It is like slavery for the new millennium. (I really need to stop.) |
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Great Hierophant
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Heck, the one you can buy with a cart connector most likely would've played MMC5 games |
Stick to the 60-pin cart connectors, because the Yobo 72-pin Neo-Fami does not play MMC5 games either.
The sucky thing about the console is that it looks appropriate, not unlike how Nintendo should have designed the console in the first place. The NEX is a good looking clone, its just the hardware inside is cobbled-together crap not worth the two dollars it cost to make it off the assembly line. |
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tepples
Joined: 19 Sep 2004
Posts: 6117
Location: NE Indiana, USA (NTSC)
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder what would go into manufacturing a famiclone: - Which is an accurate NES-on-a-chip, and how would one go about obtaining them?
- How would one get Kevin Horton's cycle-accurate NES core translated into an ASIC and produced?
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Jagasian
Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Posts: 386
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| tepples wrote: | I wonder what would go into manufacturing a famiclone: - Which is an accurate NES-on-a-chip, and how would one go about obtaining them?
- How would one get Kevin Horton's cycle-accurate NES core translated into an ASIC and produced?
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Ingredients for a true end-all-be-all Fami-NES:
1. a kevtris NOAC ASIC
2. a properly wired Famicom cart slot
3. a properly wired _reliable_ NES cart slot
4. NES controller ports
5. Famicom expansion port (or whatever the port is that the Family Basic Keyboard plugs into)
6. form factor compatible with FDS System, cheat carts, and other peripherials
7. s-video output
8. stereo audio output
Am I missing anything? |
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tepples
Joined: 19 Sep 2004
Posts: 6117
Location: NE Indiana, USA (NTSC)
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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Stereo audio output for existing games would be inaccurate. How would new games be programmed to use this?
I'd add 9. Extra 40 KB of RAM for loading an NROM game through a serial cable connected to NES controller port 2. |
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rufwork
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Jagasian wrote: |
Ingredients for a true end-all-be-all Fami-NES:
1. a kevtris NOAC ASIC
2. a properly wired Famicom cart slot
3. a properly wired _reliable_ NES cart slot
4. NES controller ports
5. Famicom expansion port (or whatever the port is that the Family Basic Keyboard plugs into)
6. form factor compatible with FDS System, cheat carts, and other peripherials
7. s-video output
8. stereo audio output
Am I missing anything? |
Well, a built-in wireless controller base, of course!  |
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Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 10:57 am Post subject: |
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I was the guest that posted earlier about SMB3 and Kirby's Adventure. I've tried to contact Messiah 2 times by e-mail and once by phone to return my NEX console and, so far, no response. 
I e-mailed them on both their "contact us" and "support" pages, and called their 1-800 number. The 1-800 number gives you 2 options, "dial your party's extension" or "press 0 for operator". Pressing 0 just gives you a voice mailbox.
I'm gonna keep trying to contact them via e-mail and phone, but if I can't get in contact with them by next friday in some way, shape, or form, I'm declaring this a scam and filing a complaint with the LA Better Business Bureau. |
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rbudrick
Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 275
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Stereo audio output for existing games would be inaccurate. How would new games be programmed to use this? |
Trying to remember how the stereo mod worked on the NES, but I believe some of the 5 sound channels are diverted to the left side and some of the 5 are diverted to the right side. I forget which of the 5 go to which side, but I believe the arrangement is such that the sounds usually reserved for whichever side in most forms of music are diverted this way (like the drums, bass, melody are diverted to their respective sides...like when you hear giutar in one ear and vocals in the other or something). I forget which of the 5 NES channels each side corresponds to. Wish I could be more specific! ANyway, I'm pretty sure this is the basic gist.
Does anyone know which channels go to which sides?
-Rob |
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